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Subject: Alternative RISK battle mechanic
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rdusanUser is Offline


Tactician
Tactician
Posts:2

18 May 2013 5:51 PM  

 

Hi pro RISK players!


I believe many of us consider current battle mechanic (or throwing dices) as boring part of the game. Well... except when there are some important attacks, but eventually it comes down to waiting for final results.


The problem is (as you probably know) in players passive role in getting the outcome. Here dices do deciding and player has only to roll them, roll them, roll them...


To cut short, here’s my idea:


Use the rock-paper-scissors minigame instead of dices.


OK, now to say why I think this is potentially better:


While still, mathematically, with random throwing (rock, paper or scissors)  there are even chances to win or loose the trick lies in human inabillity to throw totally random which makes room for some tactic in this part of the game.


Here is my (initial) rule:


  1. players say with how many armies they are attacking/defending: one army or two armies

  2. they throw (rock-paper-scissors or if you feel too foolish playing that way use e.g. risk cards: artillery > infantry > cavalry > artillery); here is win table:


numbers represent: attacker armies  -  defender armies

+--------------++----------------+---------------+-------------+

| armies used  ||  attacker wins | defender wins |     tied    |

+==============++================+===============+=============+

|   1  -  1    ||    0  -  -1    |   -1  -  0    |  -1  -   0  |

|   1  -  2    ||    0  -  -1    |   -1  -  0    |  -1  -   0  |

|   2  -  1    ||    0  -  -1    |   -1  -  0    |   0  -  -1  |

|   2  -  2    ||    0  -  -2    |   -2  -  0    |  -1  -  -1  |

+--------------++----------------+---------------+-------------+


  1. players remove number of armies specified in table

  2. attacker decide if he’s going to continue attack



Pros & Cons


pros:

  • its more interesting

  • its simpler than throwing dices (it will speed up game?)

  • its more fair (2vs2 armies have equal chances of winning or loosing)

  • after a while you can also participate in rock-paper-scissors world tournaments :)


cons:

  • it will change current chance rates

  • it has less states (there cannot be 3 armieas against 1)

  • it can lead to more aggressive play (e.g. -Ha, my paper beats your rock! * *%#!* * -My rock beats your face! ;)


So, lets hear Your word, but please take some time to think about it first.

Ehsan HonaryUser is Offline


Site Admin
King
King
Posts:268


19 May 2013 6:54 PM  

Hi rdusan

Your proposed system is quite clever and novel. I wonder if you have actually tried this in a full game to see how people use it or how they might exploit it. 
 
I am wondering about a few points. 
  • In  the event of a tie for 1-1, the attacker loses 1. Hence attacker has a disadvantage. In normal dice throwing attacker always has a slight advantage which is modeled based on real-world warfare. It also encourages players to attack rather than defend, making the game more interesting. 
  • The same question applies for 2-2. I understand you want to make it fair, but a slight advantage can make the game more exciting. 
  • When 2-1, or 1-2 you have 2/3 chance to win or lose depending on whether you have more or less armies. This is the same probability of attacking 3 dice to 1 dice in Risk (65.97%). This is a highly probability in Risk and most players will take the bet. It means that in your  system most players will attack when they have more armies and wont attack when they dont. This is too predictable. You can always be sure what the opponnent does, which goes against the design principle of Risk. 
So in general, I very much like the idea of using a different system to dice but I am truely wondering how this would play out in a realy game. It will be great if you can play a game with these rules and report back on what you find.  
 

Ehsan Honary
rdusanUser is Offline


Tactician
Tactician
Posts:2

22 May 2013 3:19 PM  

 

Hello Ehsan,


Thanks for posting. I must say that I have this idea for some time but still couldn’t test it out. Friends (who know and understand Risk game) have the same concerns about the rule as you, so they are not too eager to test it. But it will eventually be tested, maybe in week or in month...


When forming the proposed rule I was governed by two principles: rule must be simple and rule must behave as close as it can to old one. First one makes rule easy understandable and fast to execute. The second is because people generally don't like too much changes in something they used to; it also minimizes side effects to other parts of the game.


As I understood the Risk dice rule, the goal was to make advantage for defender in small battles (that's why on tied dices defender wins) and as battles get larger defender and attacker get even (because of that attacker can throw one dice more). This seems logical to me and, I believe, close to real life.


Comparing cases of Risk dice rule and proposed rule:

  • the most common case, 3A vs 2D (with dices) is “equivalent” to 2A vs 2D of the proposed rule. Difference between probabilities is about 4% of attackers win rate. But notice that attacker doesn’t need 3 armies to attack, he only needs 2.

  • the 1A vs 1D in proposed rule is mapped from 1A vs 1D of Risk rule. Here defender has win on tie because of the mentioned “small battle” advantage. It has 8% more to defender win rate. The same probability applies to 1A vs 2D case which compared to same of Risk rule has 8% less to defender win rate.

  • 2A vs 1D case, as you said, is close to 3A vs 1D of Risk rule, which, with analogous to 3A vs 2D, should be.


As I said, the proposed rule has less states (cases) than Risk rule but the most important cases are there and are not too much away from original probabilities - have in mind that when playing rock-paper-scissors these probabilities do not have the same impact as probabilities in dice game.


I'm not sure if answer was clear or if answers all questions, so please tell.

Ehsan HonaryUser is Offline


Site Admin
King
King
Posts:268


27 May 2013 2:14 AM  
Thanks rdusan for the clarification. I would still be interested to see the results of a game played with these rules, so I look forward to your report.

As for probabilities, I am still concerned about the 2-1, 1-2 with a high chance of winning, so somehow this needs to be fixed. The other issue is that before you go through the rock-paper-scissor sequence, you have to state how many armies are involved, which is either 1 or 2. With dice, this is dictated by the number of dice thrown, so players don't have to actually mention it. It can be seen from what they do. Here however, each player has to say it before the sequence starts. I wonder how practical this is when you have to do it over and over again in a game.

Anyway, good idea in terms of novelty and lets see how you run it in practice.

Ehsan Honary
MyWorldUser is Offline


Strategist
Strategist
Posts:17

04 Jul 2013 1:27 AM  
perhaps, to get really good in battles, some people will find tells as to what others will throw. Also, there is the issue of them both going at the same time.
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Forums > RISK > Risk Game Variations > Alternative RISK battle mechanic